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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 36 to 60 of 75. Go back in thread:
Posted by zazenducke on April 29, 2012, at 6:53:35
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » Phil, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 1:55:33
> Hi Phil.
>
> You said much of what I was thinking and feeling, but that I didn't have the motivation to write. This is an old topic, and I have had my fill of addressing it the way I have in the past. However, I would be interested to see the actual research paper that is being referred to in the article introduced here. Perhaps I would have commented on itWell that is an option-I provided a link in the second post - Primum Non Nocere :)
>
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:45:32
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by zazenducke on April 29, 2012, at 6:53:35
> > Hi Phil.
> >
> > You said much of what I was thinking and feeling, but that I didn't have the motivation to write. This is an old topic, and I have had my fill of addressing it the way I have in the past. However, I would be interested to see the actual research paper that is being referred to in the article introduced here. Perhaps I would have commented on it
>
> Well that is an option-I provided a link in the second post - Primum Non Nocere :)Sorry. Thank you. I missed it.
"Primum Non Nocere." How would you apply this principle to cancer chemotherapy?
The judgment of treatment justification seems more complex to me than simply determining if there are any adverse effects associated with it. Dry mouth causes tooth decay. Shall we remove all drugs that produce xerostomia as a side effect? I guess lines must be drawn somewhere. Many of them are bound to be fuzzy.
As for the article, I find it to be cleverly written, but little more than conjecture and speculation supported by unsubstantiated suppositions. It reminds me of the stuff that Whitaker writes. He produces references, but uses only strategically placed excerpts that are out of context. Facts are used, just not all of them. Such use of medical literature can be quite compelling, but very much wrong. Those are my initial comments. They really don't prove anything, though. It would be quite a project to challenge the thesis of the paper by refuting each contention offered by the authors. I don't know that I am qualified to do this. Perhaps I'll pick out a few of the easier to recognize errors to work with. I hope someone who is qualified to respond to this paper will write an article or editorial to challenge it. It is still quite new. I am not swayed by the presence of valid facts interspersed throughout the treatise that serve to bolster its credibility. This is what I see here. Still, I have proven nothing. There are pro-drug papers that are driven by agenda just as there are anti-drug papers driven by agenda. I think that this is one of those papers.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:55:47
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:45:32
> There are pro-drug papers that are driven by agenda just as there are anti-drug papers driven by agenda. I think that this is one of those papers.
... That is not to say that there isn't a place or function for agendas. There are. Important ones, too. Agendas are not in and of themselves invalidating of the suppositions and conclusions they portray.
- Scott
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:56:35
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:55:47
> > There are pro-drug papers that are driven by agenda just as there are anti-drug papers driven by agenda. I think that this is one of those papers.
>
> ... That is not to say that there isn't a place or function for agendas. There are. Important ones, too. Agendas are not in and of themselves invalidating of the suppositions and conclusions they portray.Obviously, I have my own.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 15:52:25
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:56:35
There is obviously one here who goes by the adage, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t". The read-and-regurgitate crowd are among the most clueless around.
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 18:28:53
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 15:52:25
> There is obviously one here who goes by the adage, "If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullsh*t". The read-and-regurgitate crowd are among the most clueless around.
The gentleman doth project too much, me thinks.
Clueless.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:06:58
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 18:28:53
The gentleman doth wonderith about the dangers of giving and taking medication advice to/from strangers, however well-spoken, on the Internet. He is astounded by such cavalier arrogance about the dangers of such a practice, or the naivete to follow such dubious advice.
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 19:20:54
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:06:58
> The gentleman doth wonderith about the dangers of giving and taking medication advice to/from strangers, however well-spoken, on the Internet. He is astounded by such cavalier arrogance about the dangers of such a practice, or the naivete to follow such dubious advice.
Words. I notice that you are particularly fixated on the word "arrogance". Why does my existence bother you so? Surely, I am not the only one on this board behaving the way you portray me as behaving.
You still wish that you were me. It is so obvious. Either I am your hero, or you are your own worst enemy. For you, there is nothing in between.
How is that for getting personal?
It is no act of brilliance to be different for the sake of being different. Perhaps it is a way to fulfill one's desperate need to feel significant in the world.
The truth shall set you free.
Give me a break.
- Scott
Posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:54:15
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » ron1953, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 19:20:54
How very revealing
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 20:00:34
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by ron1953 on April 29, 2012, at 19:54:15
> How very revealing
Now, you're talking.
- Scott
Posted by sigismund on April 29, 2012, at 20:04:54
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » zazenducke, posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 14:45:32
> How would you apply this principle to cancer chemotherapy?
Avoid it if it is not likely to be useful.
This is why many doctors are content to die without heroic measures being practised on them.
It could be a bit hard. You would need to accept the reality that you are dying.
Posted by SLS on April 29, 2012, at 20:08:29
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » SLS, posted by sigismund on April 29, 2012, at 20:04:54
> > How would you apply this principle to cancer chemotherapy?
> Avoid it if it is not likely to be useful.Someone close to me made that decision. She died peacefully.
> It could be a bit hard. You would need to accept the reality that you are dying.
- Scott
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 5:22:24
In reply to ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by zazenducke on April 25, 2012, at 14:18:47
This article enforces my own view and experience.
AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 5:22:24
> This article enforces my own view and experience.
>
> AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
>
> You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
- Scott
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12
> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott
I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.
Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.
There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.
I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.
Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:53
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 7:06:12
> > This article enforces my own view and experience.
> >
> > AD's have contributed immensly to ruining my life and have done more harm than good. Not that they have done anything good really.
> >
> > You know SLS, allopathic medicine is not the only ones who treat psychiatric disorders.
>
> Yes, I know, but I doubt homeopathic medicine is of any use. However, I think the "naturopath" or "integrated" approaches are worth exploring. If my sister were to accept medicating herself for her mild, but chronic depression, I would rather see her try St. John's Wort or L-methylfolate than to take Prozac. I don't want the more potent SRIs coursing though her brain if it can at all be avoided. She is actually a responder to Nardil, and has needed it for the more severe depression, GAD, and panic attacks that she experienced. She now does okay without it, and I am happy for the decisions she has made for herself.
>
> We keep hearing stories about people for whom pharmacotherapy is either a blessing or a curse. Both are true, of course.
>
> Some people mistake "homeopathic" for "naturopathic".
>
> Homeopathy (homeo = same) is the use of minute amounts of the same substance that would bring out identical symptoms when large amounts are applied to a healthy person.
>
> Allopathy (allo = different) is a method of treating disease with remedies that produce effects antagonistic to those caused by the disease itself.
>
> Naturopathy (naturo = natural) is more of a philosophy or set of principles than a prescribed methodology. Above all, it honors the bodys innate wisdom to heal. Naturopathy is sometimes referred to as being holistic medicine. This is wrong.
>
> Holistic (holos = whole) medicine is considered to be an art and science of healing that addresses care of the whole person - body, mind, and spirit. The practice of holistic medicine integrates conventional and complementary alternative therapies to promote optimal health, and prevent and treat disease by addressing contributing factors.
>
> Integrative (integrate = bring together) medicine uses an ecclectic approach to enhance the health of the individual. It postulates that one is more than the sum of his illnesses. The therapeutic modalities employed integrate methods drawn from a great many sources. These include allotropic medicine as well as naturapathic philosophies.
>
>
> - ScottHi Scott
I was talking more about Traditionel Chinese Medicine, Ayuervedic Medicine and Tibetan Buddhist Medicine.
Systems of medical practice which has been used for centuries, I think the problem is that we catogerize all branches of medicine that is not allopathic into "Alternative" which we equate with snake oil.
There is alot more to things like TCM than acupuncture and moxibustion. However I think it's difficult to find authentic quality doctors in these types practice in the west unless you know your stuff.
I know that Tibetan buddhist medicine has medcines that have been tried and tested with succes for depression and anxiety. I bet formulas like Semde and Bimala would trumph western antiedepressants in a clinical trials. And without side effects.
Of course some TBM practices are buddhist in nature. Depression with be associated with attachment. Also strong attachment to the body, which is why we often see people with predisposition to depression to have a hypochondrial side. A buddhist practice for these people would be Chöd.
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:38:37
I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.
Posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 9:42:25
> I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.
Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.
- Scott
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by SLS on April 30, 2012, at 10:11:25
> > I also communicate with a TBM doctor who also is a Dzogchen teacher. He says that allopathic medicine is best for things that require surgery, but not really so much else. That has really been my experience all along.
>
> Thanks for the information. There was a time when I thought to try acupuncture. However, I was short on cash at the time. Also, the Korean practitioner that I saw could not describe for me a specific treatment to address depression. I am sure that there are some, but I didn't pursue it.
>
>
> - ScottOkay
I think Acupuncture in itself would be too weak for clinical chronic depression. It can probably induce relaxation and release emotional tension pent up in the body though.
-Alex
Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:21:06
China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29
> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.
And why do you think that is?
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 12:34:05
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 11:53:29
> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.
> China accounts for 40% of the worlds 1 million yearly suicides. Yeah China is a huge country but still.
Top 10 suicide pr. 100.000 capita countries
Rank Country Male Female Total Year
1 Lithuania 61.3 10.4 34.1 2009
2 South Korea[3] (more info) 41.4 21.0 31.2 2010
3 Guyana 39.0 13.4 26.4 2006
4 Kazakhstan 43.0 9.4 25.6 2008
5 Belarus[4][5] 25.3 2010
6 Hungary[6] 40.0 10.6 24.6 2009
7 Japan (more info)[7] 33.5 14.6 23.8 2011
8 Latvia 40.0 8.2 22.9 2009
9 People's Republic of China [8]
(more info) 22.23 2010
10 Slovenia 34.6 9.4 21.9 2009
Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 12:37:24
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11
I don't know but I bet you're going to tell me.
Posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper, posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 11:57:11
I had old info. My mistake,
In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.
Posted by AlexanderDenmark on April 30, 2012, at 13:44:16
In reply to Re: ADs may do more Harm than Good -New Research paper » AlexanderDenmark, posted by Phil on April 30, 2012, at 13:13:10
> I had old info. My mistake,
>
> In a prior study, Phillips found that 40% of all suicides in the world occur in China, but depression there is three to five times less common than in the West, and substance abuse, often viewed as another cause of suicide, is much less common in China than in the West
>
> But you were going to tell me why China accounted for 40% and then posted something else.No, I was asking you why you think that it is so. My thoughts on it would be that China has a totalirian regime with a capitalistic economy. You have no freedom, no one gives a rats *ss about you. Widespread poverty and add to that a rigid materialistic culture that also emphasis pride and family honour above all else. Not to mention a ban on all religious practice.
Why do you think rich developed countries like Denmark and Norway have a much higher suicide rate than contries like Columbia and Egypt? And why does South Korea and Japan have a much much higher suicide rate than say Thailand?
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