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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20
In reply to My therapist hurt my feelings, posted by daisym on October 13, 2005, at 20:25:03
Hey, hope you'll take good care of yourself this weekend. The pain is enormous, I know, even though mine is not about my feelings for my T, but for a male authority figure that is never going to see me/help me in this way. It really feels like one hug will do it, but I will never get it. Why can't I get past it? Why can't I feel it for my T? She gives me hugs all the time, but they don't meet the need.
It is just so very, very frustrating. You were good to go back to talk again, it has to help.
love,
antigua
Posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25
In reply to Ok I give up !!!, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 17:30:46
hi Orchid,
I like the advice you offer. I think you are always trying to think of how to fix things in a timely manner, thinking in a practical sense. Maybe it's because you're an engineer (I think you are -- am I getting that right? I think you do something technical, right? s/w, maybe?) I'm the same way, at least when it comes to giving advice to others. When it comes to ME, I'm hopelessly lost. :)Anyway, I always appreciate your advice, so keep offering it to me, at least! :)
thanks,
JenStar
Posted by daisym on October 14, 2005, at 23:59:06
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by gardenergirl on October 14, 2005, at 11:28:21
I agree -- ick. But I think I appreciate the fact that he won't let me run away and pretend like everything is OK. It is what we do here at home, after fights and it is what happened my whole life growing up -- everyone acted like everything was OK. So it is a learning experience for me.
still hurts though...
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » Tamar, posted by orchid on October 14, 2005, at 15:17:42
You ask good questions -- but I can tell you that my therapist doesn't want me to overcome these feelings, he wants us to work with them and understand them. He wants me to allow that I have feelings, good and bad, that I can't control and that have no purpose but just are part of me. I do what you are doing -- I probe for faster ways to "get through it" and I feel frustrated that I can't just "get over it." But trauma work, I am told, takes a long time and it is important to let all the parts and pieces have their say. I know that is really hard for people to understand sometimes.
I've used that "wallowing in the mud" expression, describing myself as full of self-pity, etc. The response is almost always that it is OK to want to be heard, that most people grow up never being heard. So saying stuff out loud, over and over again is really important.
I think it is all about which orientation you are using and whether it is short or long term therapy. I do understand that you are simply suggesting other options, but it is hard not to feel criticized. It isn't so much that I disagree with you as much as I agree totally with you about wallowing in it. It is just hard to hear it put like that and it is hard not to want to defend my therapist (even when I'm upset with him.) I think sometimes I get the feeling that you disapprove of his style and my dependency. Believe me, I'm working on it.
All that said, I appreciate the support you are always willing to offer.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:25:22
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 14:42:14
"It takes as long as it takes."
I wish I had a dime for everytime my therapist has said that to me. He would agree with everything you've said. I worry often that I'm taking too long or doing it all "wrong." It helps to hear that someone else kind of gets how we are doing therapy. It is complicated, isn't it?
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:29:27
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 15:57:15
Wow -- thanks Voce...I don't deserve such a cheering section. Can I please borrow some of your confidence?
I think you are right, if there was an easier way that would work all this through, we would be using it. I have to have faith that my therapist knows what he is doing, because I surely don't.
I'll take those hugs too, btw.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:35:11
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by happyflower on October 14, 2005, at 21:39:23
It always helps to know I'm not alone. It is so unusual for me to want physical comfort because I don't usually like my space invaded.
As far as crying, I felt like you feel about breaking down. But when it happened, and it did, it really was OK. I felt held emotionally and he was close by, but it wasn't like he was just watching. It is hard to explain. But some weeks I feel like all I do now is cry in therapy!
I think it helps that I can curl up in the corner of the couch, feet up, with lots of pillows so I'm not so exposed when crying.
Thanks for sharing. I hope you get what you need too.
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:38:37
In reply to Re: My therapist hurt my feelings » daisym, posted by antigua on October 14, 2005, at 22:10:20
I'm sorry you understand these feelings so well. What is up with us, huh? That daddy complex I'm sure.
I'm working at hanging in there. Tonight is a tough night, long story. You take care too.
lv and hugs,
Daisy
Posted by Dinah on October 15, 2005, at 7:55:55
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15
One reason I terminated T2 was that I could hear some of those thoughts in her questions. "Are you really better off than you were before you started therapy?" "Tell me what you were like before you started therapy." Then questions about why I continued to use negative coping skills.
Legitimate questions, I suppose, and ones I think of myself. But very hard to explain in terms of how I have improved, and how I haven't.
I think it's kind of usual even for professionals to have certain ideas about what therapy should and shouldn't be. Even if they say they approve of long term therapy, or supportive therapy. Because intense long term therapy does reveal vulnerabilities before it heals them, and sometimes it's hard to see how that can be helpful. And sometimes it reveals vulnerabilities and doesn't seem to be helping them.
With me, I explain that the helping, the growing, is at glaciar speed. It can't be rushed. Quick changes, in me, are not lasting ones. And maybe lasting changes are as simple as realizing I'm having problems and taking steps to mitigate them. Increasing my meds or whatever. Not exactly the stuff of therapy success stories.
But pretty significant to my own life.
What do I mean by this? I don't know.
I guess that it's ok to consider these questions from time to time in any therapy (which I know you do). But then to do what you, in your considered opinion, believe is best for you in the long run. Which is easier said than done, I know.
And then to realize that there are reasons people ask the questions. (And then to terminate therapists who ask them. Har har har.)
Posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 22:40:27
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings » daisym, posted by Dinah on October 15, 2005, at 7:55:55
I think what happens is that I hear so many opinions that I think I'm doing it wrong. I always think I should work harder, push through, make changes and face the world with a smile. Didn't someone say, "fake it 'til you make it?" We've talked about the shame that comes from being so attached and dependent on a therapist. People just don't get it. Even some of my friends in therapy don't get it. Because they aren't doing therapy the way I am.
But...when I try to imagine doing things in a different way (therapy that is) I don't think it would have worked for me. I would have nodded my head and bolted. In fact, I did!
Which is partly why I'm afraid of seeing a new pdoc. What if they think my therapy is going in the wrong direction? Or worse, what if they outline solutions A, B and C and I can't do these things? My therapist is setting it up, he said he would talk to them ahead of time and make sure we were all on the same page. (He has two in mind, he wants to see which one he can get me into fastest.) I'm not resisting, just fearful. Any advice on pdocs?
Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 15:17:17
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings » Dinah, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 22:40:27
Wish I had some.
I'll be looking for a new one myself soon, as the old one is likely relocating.
I guess I should have all sorts of concerns, but I think all I want is one that won't scare me.
Posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings » daisym, posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 15:17:17
> Wish I had some.
>
> I'll be looking for a new one myself soon, as the old one is likely relocating.
>
> I guess I should have all sorts of concerns, but I think all I want is one that won't scare me.Don't p-docs just label people and dispense meds? You don't tell them all your 'stuff' do you? Isn't that what T is for? Only p-doc I met was in hosp. and he was a creepy guy as best I remember.
Muffled
Posted by Dinah on October 16, 2005, at 23:24:36
In reply to P-docs?, posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19
It depends. The one before my current one was more active. My current one is "Just the meds, ma'am."
The one before my current one was very ummmm..... high energy. It felt like he was bounding toward me and overpowering me every time we met. He scared me senseless.
My current one is laid back, almost to a fault. But given my previous one, that's what I need in a pdoc.
Now to find another one like him.
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:13:42
In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! » orchid, posted by messadivoce on October 14, 2005, at 18:27:56
Thanks Voce.
I didn't mean to criticize anyone.
The way I speak / write is sometimes little blunt. Kind of like point-blank questions.
I have been trying to change it these days, but once in a while it still comes up that way.
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:14:58
In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! » orchid, posted by Tamar on October 14, 2005, at 18:31:57
Thanks Tamar. Thanks for your views.
I got a little upset on friday, but now I am allright. And I re read my post, and can see how it could be interpreted as criticism.
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 13:15:49
In reply to Re: Ok I give up !!! » orchid, posted by JenStar on October 14, 2005, at 22:22:25
Thanks JS.
You are right, I am a s/w engineer, and work under very tight timelines most of the times. So I always look for making things work faster. :-)
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05
In reply to Re: How does he help you overcoming these feelings? » orchid, posted by daisym on October 15, 2005, at 0:21:15
Hi Daisy,
I reread my post today, and can see how it must have sounded like criticizing.
Sorry about that !!
I don't disapprove of your T. Never. I always liked him. As far as his encouraging your dependancy, I used to sometimes think that maybe it is not good for you. Especially because my two therapists have always said that I have to help myself and didn't allow any dependancy. But I suffered anyway with dependancy issues even if they didn't encourage it. So I came to the conclusion that it doens't really matter that much if they encourage it or discourage it. So I thought it is great that your therapist openly allows it and talks about it. And that it might really help you.
But seeing you continue to suffer intensely makes me question every now and then why it doesn't get better soon for you - especially since your T has great understanding capacity. I have actually read all of your threads in detail and have really wondered many times what could be of help to you.
That is why I thought, maybe he is focussing too much on allowing your feelings, and getting your feelings expressed and examining its root cause, and maybe lacks a little bit in helping you overcome the feelings. That was my post all about.
I read your response today, that he really doesn't want you to over come these feelings, but wants you to examine them more carefully. I think it is good in a way, in that, you probably in the long run will emerge to be a solid well-rounded personality.
But there is also the fact that you are suffering too much NOW.
For instance, if a person is suffering from chronic disease, which will get cured only in the long term, then a physician needs to focus on two things. 1. Long term cure. 2. Short term management of pain or other problem from the disease. The physician should prescribe adequate pain killers or other short term treatments in addition to long term treatments. We cannot let the patient suffer in the short term, and aim only for long term cure (which hypotehcially, let us say, might take years).
That was my only concern. I am sure of the quality of your theraist. I have no doubts about that. But for this to fully work for you, I think it might take years for you. And that is as you said, is fine, because somethings just take as long as it takes. But there might be ways to manage the pain effectively in the short term, and perhaps even, trying EMDR or visualization techniqes might even faster your recovery. EMDR these days has been really proven to much lessen the effects of trauma. It might be worth a try - or atleast asking your therapist about it. Even great therapists sometimes, miss one or two points. There is no harm in asking or exploring all possible avenues.
Regarding the dependancy, I do have some reservations atleast every now and then, and think maybe it is not that good for you. The reason I think like that is, I wonder if human beings can really differentiate at a deep level between therapeutic caring, and being cared for by a close friend/husband/boy friend. I tend to think, that it is practically impossible for a woman to differentiate the caring that she recieves from her therapist from any caring she might receive from a boyfriend or husband. And you will consequently develop the same longings/need for physical closeness that you would develop with a normal association with a boyfriend/husband. And allowing and encouraging one (emotional closeness), but refusing the other (physical contact and intimacy), is going to be very frustrating for any human being to comprehend at an emotional level. At a logical level, you might be capable of understanding that. But I wonder if our emotions can listen to that logic. And the relationship is meant to fail in a physical way. He can never pursue a relationship with you. And he has a family ( I think you have said his wife even works in the same office and you run into her sometimes ). I wonder how that is going to impact you. It is extremely hard for any woman to understand and grasp that and make peace with it. IT is practically going against human nature. IT doesn't work that way with emotions.
This is to the best of my understanding.
I know of course that I might be totally wrong. And what your therapist is doing is perhaps the best way of treating you.
But you are so intensely hurting so much. Allowing the feelings is fine if the feelings are pleasant and bearable, but if the feelings are unbearable and cause you intense hurting, I wonder what is the value in just allowing you to experience it? Espeically in terms of years? If it is for few months, I can see the point in short term pain and long term gain. But life is really not that long to afford several years of intense pain in the hope of spending the rest of your life in peace. It never works that way with life. If you spend years in intense pain hoping for a final peaceful day, then there might be some other more painful issue that might emerge at that time (maybe something not totally related to therapy - like some physical illness or something like that), which might cause you to continue to suffer. So it is really not worth spending many years in pursuit of a peaceful day which might be years away. There should also be focus on the current moment, and making you happier in today or tomorrow, rather than just years down the line.
Please forgive me if I said too much. I am not criticizing here. If it is not obvious from my post above, I care very deeply about you. I have really thought quite a bit about you, and have followed your history in detail over the years, and I don't want to pass up the chance to help you, even if my views are controversial and may not be to your liking. I always think a good way to care about a person is to give the right suggestion, whether it is likeable or not.
Please do ignore my long post, if it is not right. It is my opinion only.
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11
In reply to For Daisy - (Very Long) » daisym, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 14:21:05
Sorry, Daisy, I don't mean to hijack your thread..
Orchid, your comments to Daisy were very interesting. It makes me wonder what you must think of me? I've been slogging through this for 14 years in psychodynamic therapy with the same T. It has been very painful, but I've learned so much about myself and I have a wonderful life because of it, for her help in helping me to understand where my reactions and pain are coming from.
But we are still working our way to the core. I know I'm closer but still not there, but that doesn't negate all the years of effort I've put into this. In a way, you sound a lot like my husband in his inability to understand/believe that I have to do this so the rest of my life will be better. And I don't care if it's one day, one week, or just a month, but if I can resolve this, I will have a whole me. I don't think I can explain it to you. Your comments seem to have a "just get over it" sort of mentality, like my husband's, which shows a sincere lack of understanding, not because you don't want to understand, but that you are incapable of understanding the feelings associated. Please don't misunderstand -- thank god there is that lack of understanding. I wouldn't wish one second of this on another person.
I haven't meant to offend you at all, so I hope you don't take it that way.
best,
antigua
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:35:03
In reply to P-docs?, posted by muffled on October 16, 2005, at 15:53:19
I lost my last Pdoc unexpectedly when the guy retired and moved away w/o informing his patients. He did discuss it w/his regular patients, so I can forgive him, but it still was an abandonment I didn't need. I really liked him; he couldn't help but do therapy as he dispensed the meds.
I will stick w/his replacement, because he was recommended, but he's a young, no therapy kind of guy and he seems more interested in the "business" of what he does rather than caring for the patients (He has his phone call/internet charges down to a science!)
But the purpose of my email was to give you a heads up. I had to fill out this enormous questionaire for the new guy (which he barely referred to) that triggered me a lot. Too many personal questions w/o his knowing me. My T flipped at his callousness, but since new guy is really a psychopharmacologist (sp??)I don't care because that's all I'm going to use him for. I don't do well w/more than one T at a time anyway.
best,
antigua
Posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
In reply to Reply to Orchid, posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:28:11
I think I have managed to convey a wrong impression yet again.
I am not against long term therapy. Neither am I against the need to work out things fully. And I am not against even life time therapy if needed.
All I was trying to say is -
In addition to long term integration of feelings through talk therapy, try alternative methods of reducing pain like EMDR, visualization, meditation etc. And that also, only IN ADDITION to long term therapy - so that you get benefits in the short term as well as in the long term.
In other words, do some sort of short term pain management in addition to long term cure. I am NOT AGAINST long term cure.
I hope that makes it clear.
Posted by antigua on October 17, 2005, at 18:50:50
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid » antigua, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
Posted by frida on October 18, 2005, at 8:39:58
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid » antigua, posted by orchid on October 17, 2005, at 18:44:32
Hi..
just felt like saying something, even if it doesn't make much sense and it comes out of the blue.I've been with my T for some years now and it took me a long, long time to trust- and now, after a long time I am finally telling her some and we're going to the depths of what happened to me. She wants to go to the depths of it all, and tells me I have to let all that out of me..all the rest is warm comfort and temporary relief, but as I've seen through the years, it keeps coming back to me and interfering with my life and hurting me deeply, over and over-
as painful as it is, I do need to let it out, every bit of it....and it takes time.
She tells me and I totally agree, that I was abused for more than 14 years without a break- It's a long long time- and a lot to heal from.
I was taught from an early age many things about myself that are difficult to unroot because when I learnt them my foundations weren't even strong to begin with. If you learn since you are 4 or even less, that you are dirt, and unlovable, it is very hard to get at those beliefs and change them.
i believe, that unfortunately, it is long, long work and painful and going deep into all of that is painful, horrible and brings a lot of suffering...but it is worse to keep those feelings and horrible stuff inside forever.
I tried the other approach of trying to find temporary relief and it didn't work well-
Now, that I'm telling a bit, I do feel relieved to break the silence and isolation, even though I'm crying and hurting so much.
it takes a long time-
and validation of feelings, going deep, breaking the isolation and secrecy, telling again and again, not being alone as we were back then..it is so important. Just learning to trust somenone else takes a long long time after your trust has been shattered for years.(((((Daisy)))))
Sending you support and understanding
Frida
Posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by frida on October 18, 2005, at 8:39:58
I think that so much of this has to do with my mother...I wanted her to see, to feel my hurt and to rescue me. I wanted her to hold me and comfort me and tell me how to care for the parts that hurt that I didn't even know could hurt. I wanted someone to make sense out of the confusion.
Now I want that from my therapist. I want him to see and to feel my hurt. And the only way I can do that is to keep saying it out loud, and when I can't say it out loud, I demonstrate in so many other ways that I'm hurting. And he tells me that I need a network, a group around me to help me when I can't pull myself up and out of it.
But I don't want that. (OK, sometimes I want that. I think I use the board for that kind of support.) I want HIM to hear me and see all this pain. And I'm now sure it is because I wanted HER and only HER...or especially HER to see that I was suffering.
So I'm beginning to think that the reason I'm resisting medications (though I'm now using them) and resisting the care of my friends and resisting sleeping is because the one thing I want, the think I need, is for her to see that her little girl is suffering. Does that mean she will see that I'm not perfect? Can I risk that? I think that the depths of this despair indicate how big I think the pain has to be in order to get her to notice.
And I hold out no hope that she ever will. So I cling to my therapist noticing and the minute I think he is wavering, changing his attention to something else (other clients, his vacation) I try to pull in and instead the pain gains strength and volume again.
The hardest part is recognizing all of this and doing it anyway. :(
Posted by rs on October 18, 2005, at 15:59:13
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
Daisy what a honest and brave post. I could of written that. Sorry for jumping in. Just really hit here.
Safe hugs if ok
Posted by Tamar on October 19, 2005, at 17:09:48
In reply to Re: Reply to Orchid, posted by daisym on October 18, 2005, at 12:31:34
Oh Daisy, I’m sorry it’s so painful… but what an incredibly brave post.
Your insight in the midst of your suffering is amazing. You really are an incredible person. It’s hard… and you’ve come such a long way already, though I know you don’t always feel it. I’m just so impressed at your ability to keep working through it all.
Tamar
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